AGM/Remits

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tonymcmahon
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Even my ofna z10 in 1998 had normal hexes that woukd for all rims ๐Ÿ˜œ Never heard of this malarky before

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B.C.Ninja
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 pm

Like every thing there is two sides to everycoin, to start with, Tony drones are worse than this hobby, you buy the flashest kit out there to get into it, then 1 week later the newest baddest Flight controller or esc's or the shindig frame is on the market making your 1 week old purchase obsolete hahhahahaahahahhahaha.
Now I will admit that I find control tyres do increase the costs to me to attend an event, normally I will have some tyres in my bag with a few runs on and I may purchase 1-2 sets of my goto tyre to get me through, the comparison to offroad and control tyres just shouldn't be made, its a whole different ball game, and not everyone gives a hoot about the dark art of tyre/insert/rim matching, I would put money on the fact that 80% of onroad drivers in the country buy a set of premounts, biff em on and away they go, yes there are other factors to take note of within the construction, but with a lot of drivers it is the least important thing for them to be worrying about. I personally find that there is too much info being fed to a lot of the mid to lower pack drivers, really they need to biff on a set of premounts that are suited to the track and pull the trigger, and start hitting the lines first before the start to delve into some of the deeper arts of racing. Maybe its just the leftie comming out in me, but there are a solid bunch of roosters out there that Don't have tyre warmers, and with the costs of racing (yes for some people this is a factor) don't really have warmers on their xmas list, I currently lend my spare set to a young racer in chch to use as he and his little brother are solely funded by their grandad, and yes he beats me hahaahahhahahahahaha, put yourself in his shoes and try and run Stock for instance with a 32deg tyre with no warmers, I can hear the whinging from here already. Yes control tyres makes sense on one side of the fence as there are guys out there vying for the top and go the extra mile hoping every screw is tightened and the drag coefficient of their lightweight yokomo wheelnuts are in spec, but on the other side of the fence there ARE a good number of punters that WANT to race these events to do the best with what they have, and TBH just get out there and have fun. We have to realise that we don't have a massive pool of drivers to choose from to allow events solely for the top 1% of racers, you need these lower drivers to make the numbers, to be your volunteer marshalls and to fill the gaps between your races so you have time to wrench on your cars, I'm not saying to NOT have a control tyre, I'm more trying to see if there is a MIDDLE GROUND that can be reached as not to discriminate against a proportion of our club members that want to race. I also keep hearing the crap about having to buy a million sets of tyres to attend an event, do any of you not remember the first events you attended, you most likely had some ole scrubbers and maybe shouted yourself a set of mid temp tyres for the finals. To put things in perspective, we have the Sth Islands comming up in Oct, currently out of all the Stock drivers that want to run only 2 have the spec motor, now we have had 4 new guys start in the last couple of mnths, they have scored some nice secondhand rigs that came with the likes of trackstars or someones unneeded 21.5, they have a lipo and basic charger, some of them have some basic tools, but all of them have enthusiasm and want to race, but to race they all need to head out and purchase a new motor, sometimes its not always about winning guys, and I feel with some of the posts on here that some obviously think it is....... if control tyres matter that much to some of you, why not just run the same tyres as each other, there is nothing within the current rules stopping you, if you believed in its merits that much you would make a gentlemans agreement and run 1 tyre, before the 2018 season there is two sanctioned meetings........... challenge issued :mrgreen: (y)

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ed
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 pm

I was going to keep clear of this, but I cant resist... the urge is too much and I'm too old

I agree with everyones posts here and see merit in them all

Tony/MatV

CMR did the first control tire Nats, and from a tire POV it sucked, yes, we got the tires wrong, the Sweep spec tire tested great at cmr, was a second slower, but you would expect that, but at the Fielding track, they were very hard to setup, The reason we ended up going to the Fielding track as cmr was damaged in the CHCH earthquake and we could afford to get it fixed/up to a standard for a Nats. (useless info there)

we tired to get the best bang for bucks, and we (I) failed to choose the right one, at that stage not many had experience with control tires so the knowledge wasn't there

This I believe is why there is so much resistance to the control tire.

Id love to see a control tire back, but the rule has to have backup, I.E. host club being able to ask Racers with experience with control tires for help and not having to take the financial risk of buying the tires (CMR still has 50 or so sets of the control tire if you would like a set ;) )

Simon

how do you fit your coffee cup into the tire cup ? mine keeps falling over ? ;)



ed

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B.C.Ninja
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:19 pm

They don't serve coffee in preserving jars in Auckland Ed, like they do in wellies, thats why Si can get em in the tyre warmers :mrgreen: (y)

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ed
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:45 pm

by B.C.Ninja ยป Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:19 pm
They don't serve coffee in preserving jars in Auckland Ed, like they do in wellies, thats why Si can get em in the tyre warmers



:lol: :lol: BAHAHAHA that gold Nick!!

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:43 pm

tonymcmahon wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 pm
Even my ofna z10 in 1998 had normal hexes that woukd for all rims ๐Ÿ˜œ Never heard of this malarky before
Haha, yeah. I think one of the early XRays had the same setup and Robitronic copied it.
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Mat Valentine
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:26 pm

ed wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 pm
we tired to get the best bang for bucks, and we (I) failed to choose the right one, at that stage not many had experience with control tires so the knowledge wasn't there

This I believe is why there is so much resistance to the control tire.

Id love to see a control tire back, but the rule has to have backup, I.E. host club being able to ask Racers with experience with control tires for help and not having to take the financial risk of buying the tires (CMR still has 50 or so sets of the control tire if you would like a set ;) )
It is a measure of the man to be able put their hand up and say you got it wrong. Respect Ed!

There are easy ways to cover having issues around the wrong tyre moving forward, I think it was Nick who said about having an impartial committee to help the hosting club with tyre selections. If your club was to host say the Nationals, in Australia the norm is on the entry form you place an order for the control tyre as part of an entry. Min obviously one set but capped at 3 sets per car. This removes the risk of being stuck with copious amounts of left over tyres.

Nick why should the comparison to off road control tyres not me made? At the bottom of the issue is it still not that there are so many variables that it is too hard for visiting competitors to hope to get the right tyre/insert/rim combo for the conditions??? Is that what we are talking about too????

While I totally understand that not everyone at your club has tyre warmers and it is awesome that you help out others with your spare warmers, I do feel that if you are going to race at the national champs or North/South Island champs you are taking our little sport seriously. If you are taking it seriously enough that you want to compete at one or more of these then you really need to invest in tyre warmers. This rule is not making one control tyre for every club day in the country. If you want to run any old tyre that's in your pit bag at club days go for it! But for three race meetings a year, as you said "biff on a set of premounts that are suited to the track" that are the same as all your fellow competitors and enjoy some close racing.

On a side note for those who travel to Nationals/North islands/South island's don't have to bring every tyre they own just in case that's 'the' tyre so you have more room in the pit bag!

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B.C.Ninja
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:16 pm

Mat Valentine wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:26 pm
ed wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 pm
we tired to get the best bang for bucks, and we (I) failed to choose the right one, at that stage not many had experience with control tires so the knowledge wasn't there


While I totally understand that not everyone at your club has tyre warmers and it is awesome that you help out others with your spare warmers, I do feel that if you are going to race at the national champs or North/South Island champs you are taking our little sport seriously. If you are taking it seriously enough that you want to compete at one or more of these then you really need to invest in tyre warmers. This rule is not making one control tyre for every club day in the country. If you want to run any old tyre that's in your pit bag at club days go for it! But for three race meetings a year, as you said "biff on a set of premounts that are suited to the track" that are the same as all your fellow competitors and enjoy some close racing.

OK so I'll try and put it plainly, currently for the South Islands I could honestly tell you that from my estimate only two or three (depending on whether someone enters) entrants in stock touring have tyre warmers, if you exclude everyone else we have no class to run, period, I don't think I can make it any more stripped down than that. Do these guys need to buy tyre warmers to run club days, nope they biff on some 24's or 26's and cut some laps with good grip, should they have just as much right to race at the sanctioned event put on by THEIR club, YES! its bums on seats people, Look I've said it once and I'll say it again, I couldn't care less whether it goes control tyre or not, but TBH the selfishness of some of these comments is outstanding, there is more to racing in NZ than the Naki and NH, =shit if we want to really spec it up lets go control tyre and no tyre warmers, as honestly all you have done is passed one cost off as another. So far I have not seen anyone commenting with a possible middle ground, its all or nothing, why not look at spec'ing one or two classes to start with, SS and or Mod would be a great place to start, it then also would allow time to get the ball rolling to implement a gradual change to Stock, this way the guys that really want it spec'd up get their wish, they then also move outa stock (which would please a few) and we can leave the feeder class as it is, food for thought people, life is about compromise.

Mat Valentine
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:46 pm

Mate I don't remember reading in the remit anyone who races without tyre warmers will be banished for life, did I miss something?

Personally I think the same control tyre across all classes is easiest to police as then at scrutineering it is a very simple check. Potentially advantages as far as a bulk purchase of tyres, if like the process of ordering tyres on the entry form I mentioned above was implemented, then you could get a better deal for all racers. But if you really wanted to there would be no harm in starting with one or two classes. Kinda ironic that the class that has a control motor to even things up wouldn't have control tyres to even things up to match though don't you think???

PS tyre warmers are banned for the invitational class at Reedy Race of Champions, maybe you could place a remit to ban them in NZ and see how it fly's?

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:21 pm

There's surely no reason why you couldn't have a 32 for SS and mod and a 28 for stock? Can't be that difficult to police or organise, can it?
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tonymcmahon
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:52 pm

Matt Whitmarsh wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:21 pm
There's surely no reason why you couldn't have a 32 for SS and mod and a 28 for stock? Can't be that difficult to police or organise, can it?
You can do that Matt, that's entirely up to you guys. I would suggest having simple purple dot stickers with nail polish to seal over it for 32s and green for 28s, very easy to visually police :)

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B.C.Ninja
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:22 pm

Mat Valentine wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:46 pm
Mate I don't remember reading in the remit anyone who races without tyre warmers will be banished for life, did I miss something?

PS tyre warmers are banned for the invitational class at Reedy Race of Champions, maybe you could place a remit to ban them in NZ and see how it fly's?
No it is more to do with the lack of traction you would have if the current remit specifying for 32deg tyres across the board came into effect, if you didn't have warmers you would end up having a pretty shit time on the track, you just wouldn't be able to generate enough heat without giving them the ole toasteroo before hand, so no you wouldn't be banished but she'd certainly make for some interesting racing. Its also interesting regarding Stock, as I'm sure the last time that control tyres were run they were run only for mod and superstock, I think it was upto the host club to specify the option, whether to run control or not, yes it may seem weird to not specify a control tyre to a class that has a control motor but thats no way near as weird as the shells you are allowed to run in MinI which would be the most controlled class of all compared to TC Classes :?
All in all this thread would have to be making some interesting reading for all the outsiders peering in but it is healthy to be discussing these matters in a civilised way pre agm so we don't have a pied piper situation going on, this is also a good bit of advertising to Scotts proposed voting rule which I personally think is a winner, hes put in a good whack of time on that one and it would prove to do away with clubs pooling votes to get a remit through and leave it more in the hands for individual racers, I certainly hope that if any one remit gets passed its that one, other than that I'm a bit of a hipster so I think we should all just start running on hand carved wooden wheels anyway hahahahahahahahaah :mrgreen: (y)

tonymcmahon
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:57 pm

Matt, i only just seen this from your very first post

"Remit 2 about taking the stand in qualifying order will apply to every final at every sanctioned event (IC/EP/on/off) - just think about who will organise and police this and the time it will take."

Do you mean, joe blogs qualified 1st in the As so he gets to line up first in line to get on the stand and so on? If so, that doesn't need policing, it works well here in oz too, if you qualified on pole and some numpty tries to line up in front of you, you simply say "oi dickhead, where did you qualify? Oh 9th, cool story bro now get to the back and be faster next time" ๐ŸŒ๐Ÿค™๐Ÿผ๐Ÿ˜œ

It needs no policing, everyone knows where they qualified and no one gives up their rightful spot in the line

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ed
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Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:29 am

Mat Valentine wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:26 pm


It is a measure of the man to be able put their hand up and say you got it wrong. Respect Ed!

There are easy ways to cover having issues around the wrong tyre moving forward, I think it was Nick who said about having an impartial committee to help the hosting club with tyre selections. If your club was to host say the Nationals, in Australia the norm is on the entry form you place an order for the control tyre as part of an entry. Min obviously one set but capped at 3 sets per car. This removes the risk of being stuck with copious amounts of left over tyres.

Thanks Mat, I appreciate the kind words

the tires were on the entry form, but our problem was we had to take a guess on numbers as they would take 5 weeks to supply us the tires so we bought 150 sets based on the prior years Nats. (bear in mind only super stock and Mod ran control tires, I cant remember the reason stock wasn't included, I think it was because they still had to buy a silver can motor)

but for what ever reason, we had half the expected entries, some say it was because we went back to fielding and racers didn't want to race there, other reasons I heard were they didn't want to use a control tire.

I realize nowadays that I was one of the ones who was against a control tire, for my own historical view, so now a days I am just a club member as I felt I was more of a hindrance than a help with all my historical "baggage"

anyways, I think a control tire, with the support of racers in choosing the tire that can be bought by the racers a: from anywhere so they can do there own testing and b: at a "discounted" price for the event (I use the term discounted lightly)

ed

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:01 pm

tonymcmahon wrote: โ†‘
Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:57 pm
Matt, i only just seen this from your very first post

"Remit 2 about taking the stand in qualifying order will apply to every final at every sanctioned event (IC/EP/on/off) - just think about who will organise and police this and the time it will take."

Do you mean, joe blogs qualified 1st in the As so he gets to line up first in line to get on the stand and so on? If so, that doesn't need policing, it works well here in oz too, if you qualified on pole and some numpty tries to line up in front of you, you simply say "oi dickhead, where did you qualify? Oh 9th, cool story bro now get to the back and be faster next time" ๐ŸŒ๐Ÿค™๐Ÿผ๐Ÿ˜œ

It needs no policing, everyone knows where they qualified and no one gives up their rightful spot in the line
I guess you're right Tony, if there is a rule in place, people will most likely follow it.

This remit came from Counties and I'm sure is a reaction to an incident at the EP off-road Nationals in Hawera. We don't have this rule currently and while it seems to happen at nitro off-road events, it has never really been done at electric meetings (not in the 30 years I've been racing anyway). We were all on the stand, waiting for race start in a final, and Scott Brownhill was late and therefore last up on to the stand. Anton Hubers suggested that I give up my place on the stand to Scott because as second qualifier, Scott had precedence over me as 5th qualifier. I told him that in the absence of a rule or standard practice I wasn't going to do that, to which he replied with an obscenity. Anton qualified 3rd, but wasn't in any hurry to give up his spot on the stand for Scott - easy to give something up when it isn't yours to give up I guess.
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