AGM/Remits

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:19 am

I see the remits are out for the up-coming AGM. Thought I'd start a thread to discuss them should people want to, if they can't make it to the actual event. Try and keep it civilised though.

One thing I wanted to comment on is the EP off-road nationals. It seems now that 1/10th and 1/8&4WDSCT are more often being separated, but only EP Off-road Nationals is listed in the proposed meetings. I assume LFR's application to hold these applies only to the 1/10th classes, so what has happened to the 1/8th event?

Rules remits to think about:
Remit 2 about taking the stand in qualifying order will apply to every final at every sanctioned event (IC/EP/on/off) - just think about who will organise and police this and the time it will take.
Remit 4 for battery specs is needed, but 1/12th classes are missing from it. Also, I imagine it is not safe to charge a 2s LiFE to 8.4v.
Remit 11 about number of sets of on-road tyres will apply to all sanctioned meetings and any club event run under these rules - should it be limited to the nationals only?
Remit 12 also about controlling TC tyres gives the option of slicks ot foam (for carpet), but doesn't offer an option for carpet where foam doesn't work - should it? Or should the rule be modified only to apply to outdoor meetings and remove reference to foam and carpet?
Remit 17 - shouldn't rule A8.1 be removed altogether? Rule A7 covers stock motors already doesn't it?
Remit 26 - 45 seconds is too short a time for the last lap on longer tracks like Taranaki, for example, where the average lap time is longer than that - there needs to be some flexibility in that rule, which there already is.
Remit 29 proposes to duplicate information proposed in remit 4 - I'd like to suggest that duplicating information anywhere in rule books is a bad idea - either specify the battery voltages in each rule book (offroad and onroad) or in the general rules, but not both.
Remit 35 is unintentionally worded to prevent people using new tyres - probably should say "new, or near new" - difficult one to police, especially if the event is on a high wear surface.
Remit 40 - is it fair to use times to break a tie when times aren't important in the finals points system? I.e. places in a final are based on track position, not time, so someone with clear track position may not be pushing for a fast time.
2017 NZRCA AGM Agenda.pdf
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viper1
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Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:41 pm

Some interesting points you raise there young Matt.
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lunchie
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Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:51 pm

remit 5 about a 10A max charge rate is a good one and the reasoning is also good. less batteries on site equals less risk. Having ONE battery per car and being able to charge at 10A (well within nearly all battery recommended charge rates for most of us using 3000-6000 mah batteries) makes perfect sense. it also lessens the rush if you are having to charge at 1C then struggling to get all your batts sorted out and into the car in time for the next heat.
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B.C.Ninja
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Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:03 pm

lunchie wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:51 pm
remit 5 about a 10A max charge rate is a good one and the reasoning is also good. less batteries on site equals less risk. Having ONE battery per car and being able to charge at 10A (well within nearly all battery recommended charge rates for most of us using 3000-6000 mah batteries) makes perfect sense. it also lessens the rush if you are having to charge at 1C then struggling to get all your batts sorted out and into the car in time for the next heat.
To right mate, the 1c rule is outdated and was pretty much established as a fail safe for lipo manufactures, pretty much the most danger as far as lipo charging is concerned is with charging damaged lipos, but if racers are having to have large amounts to get the through a meet due to the time it takes to charge, then they are less likely to replace suspect lipos due to cost, I personally have been running the same two LiPo's since the nats in wellies a few years back two lipos two cars, charging at 10 amps and they still are in great nick and have good low IR values on both packs, tbh I would have to be the worst with lipos, I haven't ballanced the two packs in over a year, yet they are equally balanced, I also don't storage charge them, I just leave em in the cars after a meet and charge em the next month at the track. You can currently purchase the likes of a skyrc charger for a little over a hundy bucks that will charge at 10amp, to me its a no brainer, but what would I know I'm only an electrician :mrgreen: (y)

It also appears that the remit I put forward to the Otago club regarding the 21.5 motor rule/list has been put in the wrong section, my bad, pretty much due to the confusing section in the rule book, pretty much the remit is there to at least set a guideline for adding motors too the list that F1 still uses, so will have to see what happens there at the agm as it is referencing the wrong rule, but pretty much there has been a few circumstances where motors have been added at short notice to the list, which in my opinion isn't quite right as it gives some an advantage whilst others don't get a chance to run the new addition due to close proximity of an event, this happened with the inclusion of a few motors at a few past events.

Now control tyres, this pops up every year, I am neither for nor against, ,but I feel if a control tyre rule is to be put in place it needs to be well thought out and universal to all tracks in NZ, the current remit for a 32 shore tyre for all three touring classes has a few glitches in the Matrix, just look back at the Nats at Ruapuna about 4 ish years ago, Mod was tearing the 36 deg control tyres to pieces, whilst a good percentage of SS drivers were struggling to get grip on the same tyre, add to this NZ's variable temperatures and you will have a good amount of whinging at the end of a race meet, I have been to events in the heat of summer where one day its in the high 30's and then the next its 10 deg, it doesn't take much for a southerly to roll in and change track temps drastically, yes there is the whole whoohaa of "Level Playing Field" "Same conditions for everyone", but at the end of the day what does that matter if people end up having a crap time due to the tyres purely not suiting the weather conditions. Add to that the whole argument of "They have control Tyres all over the world at big events", well they also allow traction compound as well, which is a whole different ballgame. Next there is the "cost" factor, the argument is that with one tyre for all classes allows the tyre to be used on multiple cars, well yes, but that would be the same with no rule, a racer could use 1 set of tyres on all their cars already, so no cost savings there, what will increase costs though is the tuning options a driver will require to be competetive to try and achieve grip with a differing set of rubber that they are used to, as setup effects weight transfer to the tyre and hence the grip developed in that tyre. All in all a single tyre choice for all Touring classes without the use of traction additive will lead to a lot of disgruntled racers, currently at Ruapuna grip is being developed on 24's and 26's in Stock and Super Stock, in the height of Summer you will find the Stock drivers getting onto 28's and maybe maybeeeee 30's for a few depending on setup, and the Super Stock drivers will be up around the 30's and maybe 32's if its a scorcher. Maybee a change to the likes of 28's for Stock and Super and then like a 32-36 for Mod would be a better choice, who knows but the current remit has some holes.

Limited sets of Tyres, well how many people out there are currently running a new set of tyres for every heat and every final and are they developing any advantage in doing so????????????? its a well thought out remit, but is it needed, if some plonker thinks they are gaining an advantage by buying 8 sets of tyres to run a new set every round, then good on em, and if some other plonker thinks they didn't beat said plonker because they ran 8 sets of tyres, then you might need a bit of a rethink and maybe look towards your setup or driving. Personally the remit doesn't really bear much of an effect on myself but is it necessary.

Otherwise thats my speil, whos next :mrgreen: (y)

tonymcmahon
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Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Just control the tires and get on with bloody racing!

Advantages of Control Tire;
- You can rely on your talent of driving not the size of your credit card
- You can have more money for beer and burgers over a weekend event
- You will have more friends
- The racing will be better
- You won't hear old mate dickhead 3 months after the Nationals who keeps saying "If only I had the sorex 24s then I would have won"
- If the control tires don't work as good as your preferred favourite tire....guess what happens? you all have the same grip level across all cars, so all have an equal playing feild
- Volante or Rush 36 work perfect everywhere at all temps, we use them here at all events in Australia and like they do around the world, when the temp is 55º track temp in summer or 6º like it is now in Melbourne. The point is, we all have the same level of grip.

Advantages of having an Open Tire for Events;
- You will create talentless drivers who will be sh!t when going to an actual event overseas.
- Your will be a loner
- You will be hungry and thirsty at events because you will be poor
- You might eventually win an event based on tires not talent

I ran the Australian control at Ruapuna for last years nationals, it was a 36 Volante, I used 3 sets in total for prac, quali and finals, had no issues with "ripping apart" had plenty of grip considering not allowed the use of additive in NZ and also it was bloody hot that weekend.
I hate that only locals at a club know what tires work, it means all travelling to events currently in NZ have to guess or simply buy $500 worth of different types and shore ratings of tires.

I will keep coming to NZ events but I will only ever use the 36 control tire we use here just to prove a point.

Mat Valentine
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Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:28 pm

For my 2c I think the remit 2 is self policing, at events I have been to in the past at the bottom of the drivers stand there are grid position numbers to stand at before your race starts, if you have qualified 4th you should have a #4 on your car so you stand at #4, which will be 4th in line to walk up to the drivers stand. If you chose to jump the queue I'm sure the person standing in #1 or #2 could tell you to get back in line.

Ive made my thoughts on control tyres very clear on here before, surely it's time to catch up with the rest of the world and get on the control tyre bandwagon!!!

I think given that a 36 works with every class almost everywhere that would be the way forward. Speaking to Ryan Maker who has Volante tyres in Australia the working range of a 36 is from 15°C to 45°C track temp which covers most tracks. While I agree with you Nick about additive changing things, having no additive changes it for the better! With additive (and tyres) in Australia controlled for major events you would think there is not much to stress about with tyres, but there is a massive black art to get the most out of additive so to not have it here in NZ is awesome. I think if we had a rule that the club hosting nationals chose the tyre and compound that they know works at their track.

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Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:20 pm

If only Tony had of stuck with the beers and burgers in Chch instead of the dodgy curry he wouldn't have spent half the day in the porta loo hahaha, like i noted i'm neither for nor against, I can see merit on both sides of the fence, I guess one positive with how you guys run in aus is that you run the control tyre at all meets so that you can get the car in the ballpark range with said tyre, personally I could see merit with making the new 13.5 class a lot more controlled, at least at Ruapuna it is the hot to trot class, if notoriety is brought towards that class more of the top dogs would migrate away from Stock Touring into this more "Superior" class, spec it up, control tyres, the works, and let the racing decide, in doing so you may just make the feeder class "Stock Touring" a little more inviting to the newbies, I dunno......... but what I do know is that we need to accommodate all racers, not just the 1% that want to go that extra mile with racing, in saying that pretty much all the top drivers are running the same bloody tyres anyway hahahaha right back to work watching beet bottles going atound and around a factory, graveyard shift cover at a brewery, guess what everyones getting for xmas this year, and with all the free beer I can buy more tyres hahaha

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:37 am

Do you guys with race experience in Aussie (Tony and Mat) think that the reason the Volante 36 works in all conditions over there might be due to the use of additive? Also, are you talking about all classes, or just modified? I have raced meeting here were the track temp is as low as 3°. In stock class currently, most run 24 by choice with maybe 28 in the middle of summer (I can remember running 20s in winter meetings). In all my time racing I've only ever run a 36 in Modified in the hottest conditions (32 for the rest of the year) - for SS I've never run above 32 - I think most here would be the same, which is I guess why a 32 tyre has been suggested in that remit.
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:51 am

I guess one positive with how you guys run in aus is that you run the control tyre at all meets so that you can get the car in the ballpark range with said tyre
Directed at Onroad only.......

Imagine how much simpler it would be for everyone including newcomers to race toy cars if we ran the same tires at every track around the country - one less thing to think about..... n guess what - long term it will keep the costs down n certainly make travelling more inviting.....

Having been the newcomer n not just babbling on as some like to do but aren't newcomers themselves, I have travelled to onroad nationals and norths over the past 24 months with not much racing experience & I can definitely say I have travelled on both occasions with a sh#t load of tires for the classes I have raced - Why ? 1) I don't know what im doing but wanted to experience these events 2) because too many of the elite don't actually want to help out the new guys at these events and advise on what works or what doesn't work at their track before the event unless you are a part of their "circle" - FACT - this isn't a knock on them - I understand the logic and I understand they are their to win , but as a newcomer it is a very fark$n daunting prospect .

Everyone can rave on about how this or that tire doesn't work - How about actually trying to make one work or find one that does so long term newcomers can enjoy these events too........... Maybe we need to start thinking outside the square box and actually have some tested by the elite drivers over the next 12 months and come up with a tire choice for the future.

Perhaps its as simple as when you list your major event to have the ultimate tire choices for your track listed on the event page if you don't want to support a control tire or perhaps it could be as simple as using 36's like Tony has mentioned or 32's, or maybe we need a split choice where we have a standalone for stock 21.5, and another for SS n Mod n learning to drive with them :mrgreen:

Mat Valentine
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:37 am

Matt Whitmarsh wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:37 am
Do you guys with race experience in Aussie (Tony and Mat) think that the reason the Volante 36 works in all conditions over there might be due to the use of additive? Also, are you talking about all classes, or just modified? I have raced meeting here were the track temp is as low as 3°. In stock class currently, most run 24 by choice with maybe 28 in the middle of summer (I can remember running 20s in winter meetings). In all my time racing I've only ever run a 36 in Modified in the hottest conditions (32 for the rest of the year) - for SS I've never run above 32 - I think most here would be the same, which is I guess why a 32 tyre has been suggested in that remit.
No I don't think the additive has much to do with it to be honest Matt. At the nats at ruapuna I ran Volante 36s on both my Stock 13.5 and mod, I brought some 32s to try and found they overheated even in the morning runs on a 13.5. I heat tyres to 60° for approx 15min before the run and drop the car straight in the track and get on with it to maintain temp. After the run give them a quick clean up with wurth brakecleaner. (Careful with the brand of brakeclean as some are too aggressive and dry the tyre out.) At the Baronia Track in Melbourne they race on a Wednesday night so track temps are similar to what you are describing but most would still run a 36 even in 21.5. The key is keeping the tyre in the operating range so you don't want to be sitting on the start grid for long in that situation! At an event in Aussie all TC cars use the same tyre as it's super easy to manage for scrutineering. Could you go faster with the perfect tyre for that track at the specific track temp with a 28 or 32 on a 21.5? Very likely but it's the same for all competitors, not just the ones that by fluke have the perfect tyre when others don't. Ask Tony, he openly admits he was lucky he had the right tyre in Wellington's Nationals. It had been hot all weekend but Sunday it was freezing cold and he was lucky enough to have the right tyre for the conditions compared to his rivals so he drove away from the field. He would have had a much closer battle if they all had the same tyre on.

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Matt Whitmarsh
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:02 pm

I guess it would work better if poeple chose to also run the same tyres at club level, then they can have more of an idea on a setup that works with their car on that tyre (of course that only works for the 3 clubs in the country who actually have regular outdoor club racing). One of my points above was about the wording of the remit specifically, because is suggests a specific 32 slick tyre - now this applies to all sanctioned meetings including indoor...I think some more detail is needed to separate indoor from outdoor if the rule is to be passed.
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B.C.Ninja
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:10 pm

What would of happened if you were one of those drivers that doesn't own Tyre warmers, how would of the hi temp tyres perform without a good ole toasting, it was pretty obvious to see the guys without warmers at the Nats at Ruapuna when we ran the 36deg tyres in both Mod and SS, I happened to be one of those drivers that hadn't purchased warmers yet, and TBH it made for some very uninspiring driving, cold tyres that never heated up. You yourself Matt just indicated that at Ruapuna you had to have your Volante Tyres nice and taosty to get them into the opperating temp, currently if I look at my local, there are only two drivers out of a solid field in touring stock that have tyre warmers, instantly the two drivers with warmers have a massive advantage to everyone else in that field if a 32deg tyre was spec'd, so that throws out the "Same Grip Level" argument, do we expect these racers to go out and spend 70 odd quid on some warmers to get their required tyres up to temp to run 1 event.................As you may of guessed I am looking at the number of racers that don't really give a flying hoot about travelling overseas, or battling for that 0.001 sec of a lap off of the top driver, these are a bunch of guys that turn up to have a bit of a shindig, make up a good proportion of the numbers and have their own rivals and battles on the grid, they don't care about being in the top 5 as they are only really battling their own personal bests. If you are a newbie all you need is one good bugger to point you in an unbiased direction regarding tyres and you're away laughing, thats the mentality we have down here in the south, maybe its just the good ole southern hospo kicking in, but pretty much with the new guys starting down here all the seasoned racers were only keen to help, offering up sets of tyres to use to get them on the track and cutting laps.

tonymcmahon
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:57 pm

QUOTE
"do we expect these racers to go out and spend 70 odd quid on some warmers to get their required tyres up to temp to run 1 event................."

Simply put, these drivers who don't own $70 tire warmers will happily go out and buy a new chassis because its new, a new speed control, new lipo etc totalling $1000 bit they don't buy tire warmers....in nz......that's just silly, no matter what the shore rating, a warm tire is a grippy tire

Imagine if the rules were in place that the stock touring guys could turn up to an event and know that their 2 allocated sets of control tires is all they have, they could put the $400 they would have wasted on many different sets of tires, rims and insert combos towards tire warmers...

Matt, with the additive question, it makes a difference on lap 1 - 3 then not much. At nz nationals last year i just kept my 36s warm and went back out and they were plenty grippy. Then afterwards i went to eat a dodgy curry and drink beers with my mates and have a fun wknd ;)

In reply to Mat Valentine about 2015 nationals, 100% correct, id only just returned to RC the day before hand after 8 years off, Stephen Li gave me his car, 1 lipo and a set of 24 sorex.....friday prac was hot, the other guys were flying but sat and sunday were cold and i got lucky, if i was on the same tire as everyone else I'm fairly sure Ant Mara, Shane Mangu and Rob Stephens would have raped me based on their actual raw driving speed.

Nationals should not be won based on my choice of tires at the right cloud condition

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B.C.Ninja
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:16 pm

tonymcmahon wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:57 pm
QUOTE
"do we expect these racers to go out and spend 70 odd quid on some warmers to get their required tyres up to temp to run 1 event................."

Simply put, these drivers who don't own $70 tire warmers will happily go out and buy a new chassis because its new, a new speed control, new lipo etc totalling $1000 bit they don't buy tire warmers....in nz......that's just silly, no matter what the shore rating, a warm tire is a grippy tire

Imagine if the rules were in place that the stock touring guys could turn up to an event and know that their 2 allocated sets of control tires is all they have, they could put the $400 they would have wasted on many different sets of tires, rims and insert combos towards tire warmers...
cmon mate you're starting to sound like Winston Peters with his $18 cabbage malarky,

Put it this way, if the remit doesn't get passed at this agm, why not put in place an attempt to show how it can work in NZ, I'm pretty sure the same argument came up a year ago, there was a suggestion of running a Touring series, people join the series that runs across the three Sanctioned meets and runs within a set of spec's, from that you can then showcase just how things can or can't work, if it works you get to turn up to the agm and put forward the info that backs it up, easy, instead of one person saying it costs more, another saying it costs less and one guy saying he likes turtles, you can turn up and put what you did on the table, what you found, ow it worked, pros and cons and a good set of guidelines to adhere to.

On another note, Scotts voting method (y) (y) (y) (y)

Mat Valentine
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:45 pm

B.C.Ninja wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:10 pm
What would of happened if you were one of those drivers that doesn't own Tyre warmers, how would of the hi temp tyres perform without a good ole toasting, it was pretty obvious to see the guys without warmers at the Nats at Ruapuna when we ran the 36deg tyres in both Mod and SS, I happened to be one of those drivers that hadn't purchased warmers yet, and TBH it made for some very uninspiring driving, cold tyres that never heated up. You yourself Matt just indicated that at Ruapuna you had to have your Volante Tyres nice and taosty to get them into the opperating temp, currently if I look at my local, there are only two drivers out of a solid field in touring stock that have tyre warmers, instantly the two drivers with warmers have a massive advantage to everyone else in that field if a 32deg tyre was spec'd, so that throws out the "Same Grip Level" argument, do we expect these racers to go out and spend 70 odd quid on some warmers to get their required tyres up to temp to run 1 event.................As you may of guessed I am looking at the number of racers that don't really give a flying hoot about travelling overseas, or battling for that 0.001 sec of a lap off of the top driver, these are a bunch of guys that turn up to have a bit of a shindig, make up a good proportion of the numbers and have their own rivals and battles on the grid, they don't care about being in the top 5 as they are only really battling their own personal bests. If you are a newbie all you need is one good bugger to point you in an unbiased direction regarding tyres and you're away laughing, thats the mentality we have down here in the south, maybe its just the good ole southern hospo kicking in, but pretty much with the new guys starting down here all the seasoned racers were only keen to help, offering up sets of tyres to use to get them on the track and cutting laps.
What would happen if those who currently don't have tyre warmers only had to buy 2 or 3 sets of tyres for a major event, bought tyre warmers (that you can use over and over!!!) With the remaining money otherwise spent on more tyres and found themselves well in the fight to take home a national title because everyone has the same tyres?

As for examples of how it would work in NZ? This sounds like the same old drama that NZ RC is somehow totally different to all other countries RC. Always the same, I remember people being against LiPo's and brushless when that tech was new as we weren't sure how they would go in NZ. Turns out about the same as all the other countries. Control tyres would work great here just as it works great all over the world.

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